Michael talks with Shawn Berman about sharing 350 square feet, starting The Daily Drunk, writing humor poems and essays about his life in pop culture, coming up with titles, writing in direct address, the influence of stand-up, his Adam Sandler obsession, 90's film comedies, 90's Nickelodeon, WWF Attitude, watching stuff during the pandemic lockdown, writing a YA novel, and more.
Michael talks with Shawn Berman about sharing 350 square feet, starting The Daily Drunk, writing humor poems and essays about his life in pop culture, coming up with titles, writing in direct address, the influence of stand-up, his Adam Sandler obsession, 90's film comedies, 90's Nickelodeon, WWF Attitude, watching stuff during the pandemic lockdown, writing a YA novel, and more.
Shawn Berman is the editor of The Daily Drunk, an online journal for humorous writing. You can find his own work published all over the internet and in his collection of poems, Mr. Funnyman, and also his collection of essays, At the Movies (Alien Buddha Press), both of which came out this year in print.
Podcast theme: DJ Garlik & Bertholet's "Special Sause" used with permission from Bertholet.
Michael Wheaton 00:06
Welcome back to the Lives of Writers, a podcast presented by Autofocus, an online lit mag dedicated to artful autobiographical writing, which you can read today at autofocuslit.com and follow on Twitter and Instagram @autofocuslit. I'm the publisher and editor of Autofocus, Michael Wheaton. Today on the show, I talk with Shawn Berman. Shawn Berman is the editor of The Daily Drunk, an online journal for humorous writing. You can find his own published work all over the Internet and in his collection of poems, Mr. Funnyman, and also his collection of essays, At the Movies, both of which came out this year in print. Alright, let's get to it. This is my conversation with Shawn Berman.
Shawn Berman 00:56
Yeah, I'm in New York. Been here almost three and a half years at this point. It's been a lot. We're in a 350 square foot studio with two cats. We thought it was a good idea to get another cat during lockdown, because one 16 pound cat wasn't enough at the time. So we said let's try this. The other cat needs a friend. Fuck our sanity.
Michael Wheaton 01:13
350 square feet?
Shawn Berman 01:16
Yeah, we've upgraded to 500 square feet now.
Michael Wheaton 01:18
Wow. So where are you in the city?
Shawn Berman 01:21
We moved to the Upper East Side. And it sounds very bougie to say, We live on the Upper East Side, but Brooklyn got so expensive that when the pandemic happened all the prices in the city were just going down. So we could live in Manhattan for the same price as Brooklyn. We said fuck it. Let's do it.
Michael Wheaton 01:36
What's it like now? I mean, things have kind of opened up but then like the variant's coming and we're here and you know...What is it like? Is it like a ghost town there?
Shawn Berman 01:46
No! No, man, it's definitely picking up. It's been pretty fun. It's weird to say because half the country is still dealing with this shit. And then now we have the variant. But it's been great because I've met a bunch of people on Twitter, who were also writers in the New York area, and we've been hanging out a lot. And that's been cool. So everything's picking up. Fingers crossed. We got some Daily Drunk events coming up at bars soon. We have this one Daily Drunk event at Greenpoint Beer this Thursday.
Michael Wheaton 02:14
So, what brought you to New York? Where did you come from? Where were you before that?
Shawn Berman 02:18
I was up in upstate New York in Albany, the area. And my partner had got a job down in New York working at Memorial Sloan. And I wasn't really doing too much at the time. She goes, We're gonna move to New York, you okay with that? I was like, Fuck, well I'm not doing anything. I'm working at some crappy job. So might as well.
Michael Wheaton 02:37
Did you grow up in Albany?
Shawn Berman 02:39
I did. I grew up there my whole life. I went far away to college, right down the street to the local college, wasted a bunch of money rooming at the dorms because I was like, I don't want to live at home. I want the college experience down the road. But I still went home, did my laundry there, ate there.
Michael Wheaton 02:55
So tell me a little bit about starting The Daily Drunk? Did you start it in the pandemic?
Shawn Berman 03:00
Yeah, man. It was it was one of those pandemic projects, like a lot of these magazines had been. I needed something to focus my time on, I had been laid off from work. And I was like, I don't know what really to do to fill all the time that I have. And I always had an inclination to start some sort of magazine, but I have no background in that really. I went to undergrad for English. So I was exposed to that a little bit. But it was just something I thought would be fun at the time. My partner, she bought me the URL for the Daily Drunk, and she went, Why not do this? I'm tired of you talking about it, why not try it? So I started that late March last year. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know where this is going. Let's try it. And it sort of took off I guess. We got a little community going. That's pretty cool. And to this day, I'm still like, I have no idea what I'm doing just kind of winging it.
Michael Wheaton 03:57
So you did it pretty quickly into the pandemic. Do you think you would have done it anyway? Or was it kind of like...
Shawn Berman 04:05
I don't know. I hate saying that where it's like, Thank God for the pandemic or I wouldn't have this magazine. Yeah. But work was just so busy at the time. There's no way I would have started it if things had remained normal.
Michael Wheaton 04:19
So about when did you get laid off?
Shawn Berman 04:22
It was pretty early in the process. Right around the same time, like beginning of March, they're like, Well, we don't need you really anymore. We might bring you back. And so there was like hope the whole summer. I'm like, Well, this is a nice extended vacation. And then August comes, they gave me the call. I'm like, Okay, I'm coming back. Everything's gonna pick up. We don't need you anymore, actually. So I was like, Okay, and that's when I started putting even more time into it, kind of figuring out what projects can happen out of this.
Michael Wheaton 04:49
What were you doing for work?
Shawn Berman 05:03
I was working at a publishing place doing audio books. Doing some digital marketing for that. So I guess, in a way, a lot of the stuff that I've learned there kind of translated over.
Michael Wheaton 05:07
Yeah. So, your idea was to start a humor mag, or was it like a pop culture mag or...was that always kind of the plan from the start? Or did that just kind of evolve as you started getting things?
Shawn Berman 05:20
I think at first, it was a humor place. It was always a humor place at first. And then, because of the pandemic, I started writing more again, too. So I started writing more of these pop culture inspired pieces and I was like, There's there's no place to really send pop culture pieces. Where do I send a poem about SpongeBob? Where do I send a poem about Stone Cold Steve Austin? I was like, I don't know, maybe I could be a place where people come and send that shit. And it's kind of taken a mind of its own. So, really glad when people think pop culture now or humor, it's like, The Daily Drunk.
Michael Wheaton 05:54
Absolutely. And it's definitely I think taken off because it's filling a hole in the community. I like to think Autofocus is doing that in a very different way for a very different thing. But I do think that there was a hole there. Okay, you can send it to what, McSweeney's? Well, they have a very, very specific thing they do. You have to basically write the piece for them, and then hope they take it, which is fine. I mean, it's no sweat off your back. But you can't just write something and then send it.
Shawn Berman 06:35
They're the pinnacle of humor. I hope one day to be a part of that. But send your McSweeney rejects to me. I will gladly take them.
Michael Wheaton 06:44
And other than them, I know there's a few others I have on a list somewhere. And if one of them happens to be listening to this, I'm sorry, I don't remember the names. But that's about it that I can really think of and it's nice to have a magazine out there that's kind of wild in the stuff it takes, whereas most humor sites have their very, very specific brand. And I think you have a specific brand of humor, too, on the site, but it's very open as well. And I'll see things pop up that I hadn't seen on the site before. And it's just nice to see really cool or funny pieces that would just sit in your folder, like, Oh, they finally can go somewhere...
Shawn Berman 07:27
So many people tell me like, I wrote this Fast and Furious poem on the toilet. I never thought it would see the light of day. I wrote this in two minutes in my car about Batman. I was like, Hell yeah, this is what wr want.
Michael Wheaton 07:38
And it's cool. And I'm relatively new to the online literary community world, but it's so nice to see places where it's just fun to be a writer. And that was never like my M.O. when I was getting into writing. You know, I think there was some humor in my work, maybe, but not very much. But I consider myself a funny person. So it was kind of odd. Like, I was talking to a friend of mine, and we were always joking around. But sometimes when you read her work, at least in the past, you know, it wasn't there. And then coming into the literature on the internet and just seeing these places where a lot of the pieces are great, it's just fun to be there. And to see what's going on there. And, you know, to become a part of it. It's just something I've really appreciated seeing. And it has kinda for me been the pandemic. You know, we have a nice community here in Orlando and I've been involved in that. But you know, in the pandemic, it's like, Where else you gonna go?
Shawn Berman 08:46
Yeah, it was interesting to connect with this community over the last year and a half. I'm kind of new to this, too. Probably the same time I started Daily Drunk, I had no idea there was this huge Twitter community out there. It's really helped. You make these connections where you send each other your pieces and you get this feedback. And I know my partner doesn't want to listen to my stories and my poems anymore. So, it was it was great to meet like minded people, for sure.
Michael Wheaton 09:15
And then recently you put out your book of poems through the Daily Drunk. So you started the press. And that one's Mr. Funny Man. Where in the process of doing the Daily Drunk, where you're starting to write again, as you said, were just like, Okay, I'm gonna put it out myself?
Shawn Berman 09:36
Well, this this book I thought was plagued from the beginning. It had a couple publishers from the start. And it fell through, funny enough. So the third time I go, Well, let's try it through the Daily Drunk. Third time's the charm, maybe. If not, I'm going to sink my own press. I thought this book was cursed. So the third time I go, Let's do it here. I've been wanting to get into the print game for a very long time. That was always a goal of mine. Because we had done the digital stuff and I thought that the next logical step would be put some print stuff out, put some collections out. And I guess I was the guinea pig for that. So that worked out great. And then the next step is going to put out on people's writing. And I love doing that, I love promoting other people, I love sharing their work. I had no idea that this would ever be a position for myself to do for others.
Michael Wheaton 10:30
Yeah, I kind of feel the same way in listening to you talk about it. It's definitely not the same story, but it's a very parallel story. I mean, there are a lot of pandemic zines. But to piggyback on what you said, like you, that was always something I've been kicking around, and wanting to do, and I didn't really feel like I had the right idea for it at the time. And then, you know, pandemic, and stuck in my house with my wife and kids for however long and feeling stuck creatively, like so many people. And I was like, Well, now is the time to just do this. And what I found was I was surprised by how much joy I've really gotten from being with other people and to put out their stuff and give great works homes and meet so many people. And it's become, I don't know if you feel the same way, but if I'm not getting in X amount of writing time that I'd like to get in that week or something, and it's because I've been doing too much for Autofocus or the podcast, I'm fine with it. Because I feel satisfied creatively.
Shawn Berman 11:42
Yeah, I do feel fulfilled doing this a lot. And I love reading submissions. It's my favorite part of it. Just seeing what the hell comes through. There's so many of our writers who send us stuff that they're so smart and witty. It's like, I could never think of that.
Michael Wheaton 11:57
Yeah. And you know it inspires your own stuff, too. And so, I enjoyed reading that book and it's just refreshing to come to poems that it's just like funny shit. I mean, there's like absolutely no pretension. There's just wild titles connecting all your various pop culture interests, and a lot of it's just like laugh out loud stuff.
Shawn Berman 12:20
I'm glad you feel that way.
Michael Wheaton 12:28
Yeah, and a lot of it's just like so much joy of... I think I've talked about this before, when you see someone writing about something that you liked to watch or listen to recently or something like that. It's just like a friend. You bond over the silliest things sometimes, that you both like SpongeBob or whatever the fuck you like.
Shawn Berman 12:29
And a lot of those poems will come from a text conversation you'll have with your friend or your brother, and they'll bring up, Oh, that Shooter McGavin, he's such a shithead. And that will spark an idea. I'm like, He is a shithead I hate Shooter McGavin. I'm gonna write a poem about how much I hate Shooter McGavin.
Michael Wheaton 12:57
Yeah, but you're having such a fun way of bringing something that almost seems esoteric, culturally, and then relating it to a life situation. Sometimes it's fun just to see when you read a title and kind of get an idea of what you're going to go into, and then you're like, Where's this gonna go? And you think it's gonna be what the title suggests, and then it has a few lines and takes the wildest turn.
Shawn Berman 13:21
And sometimes I have no idea. I have no idea where I'm going with this stuff. Just kind of let it do its own.
Michael Wheaton 13:27
And then you just had At The Movies come out. And those are essays. You know, it's the same kind of flavor, but in a different form, with the essays and the poems. I read the book of poems first, and then I read the essays. And one thing I was wondering was... in my mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, you come up with a title first...
Shawn Berman 13:48
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 13:49
...and then you write it. When you come up with those titles, and you're like, This is a great title, it's going to be something I write. How do you know when you're like, I'm going to write a poem, or I'm going to write this as an essay.
Shawn Berman 14:00
That's tough. See, a lot of the essays kind of happened accidentally, where you start writing it...a lot of them did start off as poems, and then you just keep writing, and then all of a sudden you're like, Well, I'm at 500 words, that's a long ass poem. Let's take some of the line breaks out this, this kind of works as an essay. And oddly enough, I'll very rarely start writing a piece without a title in mind. The title for me is always working as a prompt. It makes way to the rest of the poem. Without the title, I got nothing. I can't even begin writing
Michael Wheaton 14:30
And sometimes the title is the first line. And then sometimes it's kind of like a springboard into wherever you're going to go. And I don't know, maybe it's a dumb question, but how do the titles come to you? I imagine like you're in the shower, or you're driving or you're walking or you're like on the toilet. And you're like, I got it! Do you just like open a notes app or like an email to yourself or something?
Shawn Berman 14:34
Yeah, a lot of my poems are written in the notes app, probably 90% of them. I'll just be listening to a Drake song. "Don't pull up at 6 am to cuddle with me." He's damn right! Don't do that. I'm gonna use that as a title! I hate that.
Michael Wheaton 15:09
And one thing also that I noticed in both the poems and the essays is you're always, I believe, I can't think of an exception off the top of my head, but it's always a direct address. You're always writing to the "you". And sometimes that "you" feels like it's the reader, like you're writing to the reader. Sometimes that "you" feels like someone specific in your life, like your partner, particularly in the essays. But maybe fictionalized...not to suggest that it's definitely...
Shawn Berman 15:41
We'll go with that. Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 15:45
And then other times, it's not even necessarily clear who the "you" is, there's just this fictional person. And it's either your friend or something. But there's always that someone that you're writing to. And that's actually one of my favorite things about your work, is that that's so consistent. And so when you come to your work, it's always the narrator having a conversation with someone and you're either the person having the conversation, but you can't talk back, or you're eavesdropping on it. And I was just wondering, was that just something very natural that happened with you? Or was this a very intentional thing that you were like, With the kind of work I'm doing, I always want to do it?
Shawn Berman 16:31
Yeah. So I used to do stand up like every early 20's guy did in college,
Michael Wheaton 16:37
I was gonna ask about that.
Shawn Berman 16:39
I wasn't very good. But, of course, I learned very quickly that... I always wanted to do some sort of stand up or comedy writing, and that whenever I'm writing my piece, I picture I'm on stage doing a short little set. So I try to keep it conversational. Like there's an audience in the room. I like to think the pieces do play for an audience listening. So I always had that in mind.
Michael Wheaton 17:01
Did you find when you just started drafting them that you always know who the "you" is? Like, when you sit down to write, you have the title, do you consciously think, Okay, I'm going to write this to my partner, I'm gonna write this to the reader, I'm gonna write this to some random kind of "you"? Is that an intention you set or does it just kind of happen?
Shawn Berman 17:21
Sometimes it just happens. A lot of the poems and most of the essays are based on real life events. But I always like to think just because I'm saying "you" doesn't mean somebody reading it can't connect with it. We all have our favorite movie, we all have our favorite video game. We all have that time where our partner pissed us off so much. And we can relate to that. It doesn't matter what it is. You can you can reflect on that.
Michael Wheaton 17:42
And what does your partner think of it?
Shawn Berman 17:46
Oh, they hate it. They will not read it. "Do you like this?" "Yeah, sure, sure." They're supportive though. I couldn't ask for more. They support, they don't quite get it but they appreciate it, I guess. Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 18:00
Do they like being a star?
Shawn Berman 18:03
Oh no, man. We have a reading coming up for the Daily Drunk. She goes, Do not read the Guy Fieri one about us being in a romantic relationship with Guy Fieri. My co-workers are coming, you can't read that.
Michael Wheaton 18:14
Oh, that's one of the best ones!
Shawn Berman 18:16
Yeah. I said, Watch me. You won't go to work for two months.
Michael Wheaton 18:21
That's good. So did you write all of the poems and the essays during the pandemic? Or did any of them pre-date you starting The Daily Drunk?
Shawn Berman 18:32
Yeah, the essays were all written during the pandemic in such a short time, like, maybe two or three months. And about halfway through, I go, I have about six of these. I think this is close for a collection. I don't know what I'm doing. But there's something here. The poems I started writing, probably probably three, four years ago. I never really took it seriously, I would submit on and off. But there was always like a poetry file on the computer. But then when the pandemic picked up, I was writing every day. And I quickly added more poems to that. And some of them were all pretty similar in theme. And what I'm trying to say is I didn't venture out to write a poetry collection. It just sort of happened. I wasn't thinking that in my mind.
Michael Wheaton 19:18
But you did want to come to the poem form as a place to put humor. And when you think of poetry don't think humor. And when you think of humor, you're not like, Poems. But there are many great poets out there who are very funny and who just do funny shit sometimes. Or blend the funny and the serious. I was wondering if there were any particular, and it's okay if they're not, if there were any particular writers or poets that inspired you to be like, Poetry is a place where I can bring humor, and that's fine.
Shawn Berman 19:52
I'm gonna be honest. I don't read a lot of poetry outside of writing it. It's weird. I just don't. I'm more inspired by stand-up comedians or movies. I was always watching SNL at a young age and monologues and that, and I don't know. I never thought I'd be writing poetry at all.
Michael Wheaton 20:11
It's almost a bold move, right? To be like, I'm gonna make funny poems. I think it's awesome because a lot of people don't think to use the form for that and they'll go straight to essay. I found that interesting because sometimes the word poetry can turn people off immediately. Especially people who are into funny stuff.
Shawn Berman 20:32
I told family members I have a poetry book coming out. "Oh, po-e-try?!" "It's not what you think."
Michael Wheaton 20:39
So were there any particular stand ups who influenced you a ton when you were younger? Or maybe are influencing you a ton right now as you're starting to draft this stuff?
Shawn Berman 20:50
Yeah. Obviously, Adam Sandler. You can't go wrong with him. Just his goofy, wacky nature and he's just so personable. He lays it out there for sure. I've always admired Chris Rock, his ability to talk relationships and be so honest, and his ability to storytell is amazing. I wish I had half his talent at storytelling. Demetri Martin is always a guy who seems like he's having fun. Just tangents everywhere. A lot of stand-up.
Michael Wheaton 21:19
I definitely felt that. I did also want to ask you how much do you really love Sandler?
Shawn Berman 21:25
Oh, I love him!
Michael Wheaton 21:26
And how much is it a shtick?
Michael Wheaton 21:26
I always see this stuff on Twitter and I'm like, Oh, he's doing that Adam Sandler thing with like the pay a dollar and you get the Adam Sandler pics of the month. So how did this - is it too much to say obsession? - how did the Adam Sandler obsession start for you? Were you just the right age when there was Happy Gilmore and like...
Shawn Berman 21:28
I would say 50/50.
Shawn Berman 21:49
I think so. I grew up during that. My dad was so tired of buying me these shitty $5 toys that we just go to Walmart and go to the bargain $5 bin and pick out a VHS tape. And we'd always come home with like a new Adam Sandler one or a new comedy movie and watch those together.
Michael Wheaton 22:06
Yeah, I was really into Billy Madison and Happy Gilmore as a kid. They were hugely a part of my life. I mean, he's got so many movies out. And he's kind of an interesting guy. He's done all sorts of shit, his career. I mean, he's still puts out stuff. What was it, Uncut Gems. But I wonder what that guy's daily life is just like.
Shawn Berman 22:30
It's gotta be crazy. I saw some of these random pictures probably two months ago, where he just pulled up to a Long Island basketball court and just started playing with a bunch of random people. How awesome is that to be Adam Sandler?
Michael Wheaton 22:43
I wish you were there.
Shawn Berman 22:44
I wish.
Michael Wheaton 22:45
Of all people.
Shawn Berman 22:46
Right. Pass me the rock. Come on, I'm open.
Michael Wheaton 22:51
It should have been you. Well, what's your favorite Adam Sandler movie? Do you have like a particular favorite one?
Shawn Berman 22:55
It's tough. It's either Billy Madison. I mean, you can't go wrong with that. That's so fun. There's so many classic bits, the back to school, the penguin who's drunk chasing around.
Michael Wheaton 23:06
I still just randomly quote that movie.
Shawn Berman 23:08
Oh, yeah. But you also can't go wrong with Big Daddy.
Michael Wheaton 23:12
Oh, yeah. That one was really all over the heartstrings, too.
Shawn Berman 23:15
It really, it pulls at it. And you got john Stewart in there.
Michael Wheaton 23:18
Yeah. I think that movie in particular signaled the coming of Judd Apatow movies. Where you could have movies that were really wacky and hilarious, but triple down on the heart. More heart than you've ever seen in a slapstick comedy.
Shawn Berman 23:36
Manchild heart. You can't go wrong with that.
Michael Wheaton 23:37
Yeah. So I'm assuming you also grew up in the 90s then, if we're both having that frame of reference. Those comedies that came out back then, like SNL comedies, and even the non-SNL stuff, like Jim Carrey wasn't SNL, was he? and he had Ace Ventura and all those slapstick comedies, and you don't see those anymore. They just don't make them. Maybe they do and I don't see them, or I just don't hear of them, but
Shawn Berman 24:06
They go straight to Netflix. That's what they are.
Michael Wheaton 24:12
Just like 80s teen romcoms was very much a thing in the 80s and it just kind of like went away. And I mean, they still have teen romcoms, but you know when it's an 80s one.
Shawn Berman 24:22
And they definitely don't make American Pie-eque movies anymore. Those are long gone. Probably for the best though.
Michael Wheaton 24:29
That's probably because they were so deeply offensive to people.
Shawn Berman 24:33
Those won't ever make a comeback.
Michael Wheaton 24:34
But, you know, people still use terminology from it, like MILF and like all sorts of stuff. I see people say that all the time on Twitter and I'm like, Do they even know what that's from?
Shawn Berman 24:44
Right. It's just a part o everyday culture at this point.
Michael Wheaton 24:49
I know and it's so bizarre. My favorites from the 90s, that line-up was like Wayne's World and Tommy Boy, the Farley/Spade stuff, those were gems. I had all those on VHS.
Shawn Berman 25:04
You really can't go wrong with them. I think I wore out the VHS tape on Tommy Boy.
Michael Wheaton 25:10
And then, you were probably the same way, but I feel like it was a normal thing for people who grew up at that time, you had the VHS but if it was on TV, you'd watch it on TV.
Shawn Berman 25:18
Still. And I still do it. Yes.
Michael Wheaton 25:19
Even if it starts 30 minutes in, everything's gonna be bleeped out, and you're gonna have to sit through the commercials.
Shawn Berman 25:25
Everything's edited over, yeah.
Michael Wheaton 25:27
Just still like, Yeah, I'll watch this on TV.
Shawn Berman 25:30
I have it on DVD. It's probably on Netflix, but I'll still watch it.
Michael Wheaton 25:33
Yeah. Isn't that bizarre?
Shawn Berman 25:35
It's like a rule. Yeah, there's got to be something to it.
Michael Wheaton 25:38
My kids have not watched much regular TV in their lives. It's really bizarre to watch because they just get to choose.
Shawn Berman 25:45
Yeah. It's whatever you want.
Michael Wheaton 25:47
And then I'm just like, You don't understand. I used to have to sit at home watching the TV Guide channel, waiting to see when Nickelodeon's Doug would come on so that I could finally watch that. And that was my day. I'd kill a day waiting for something to come up.
Shawn Berman 26:06
If you missed Hey Arnold! at 7am, you're scewed.
Michael Wheaton 26:09
And then if you were unlucky, which was often, it would just be the thing you saw last time you watched it. The rerun of the recent episode. You'd be like, God! Four hours on a Saturday. But then you just happily watch it.
Shawn Berman 26:24
You suck it up. Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 26:26
Were you a Nickelodeon guy, too?
Shawn Berman 26:27
Oh, definitely. Nickelodeon all the way.
Michael Wheaton 26:29
I feel like Nickelodeon shaped a lot of my world in some weird way, a lot of my sensibilities in a way that I really don't want to give it credit for. I mean, the kinds of shows they had on when I was a kid was truly bizarre stuff. Like, Pete & Pete is weird.
Shawn Berman 26:51
That's a weird show.
Michael Wheaton 26:52
It's really weird. And it's great. But I think 90s TV for kids was contantly pushing the envelope.
Shawn Berman 27:00
It was such a Wild West. Rocko's Modern Life, wasn't he a sex phone operator?
Michael Wheaton 27:05
Was he? I don't remember that. Oh my gosh. Yeah, there's Ren and Stimpy is just...the amount of Ren and Stimpy I watched, what does that do to a kid?
Shawn Berman 27:15
It's gotta do something. I always love the Double Dare 2000s. That stuff was wild. You and your mom are gonna go stampeding around this obstacle course, she might break her neck, but in the end, you might win this toaster oven. And this free mini waffle maker. How awesome is that? Your mom can't walk but you got this.
Michael Wheaton 27:32
Mark Sommers is gonna give it you your prize, right? Like in what world is that guy famous on TV? For anything?
Shawn Berman 27:43
I think about that green slime that they drenched on people like way too often, like hard. Do you think that is to get that out of your hair? I wonder if it's FDA approved?
Michael Wheaton 27:51
Oh, no, it is! It's food. I remember this because when I was a kid, I didn't yet live in Orlando but we used to like to come here, to go to Universal and stuff. And they had Nickelodeon Studios at Universal and you could go and catch a taping of regular Double Dare or All That or something if you were really lucky.
Shawn Berman 28:15
Oh, yeah. That's how you know you made it.
Michael Wheaton 28:18
And if they weren't taping something, you just got this tour. And they always like pick someone from the audience and gacked 'em. And I can't remember what it was, but they were like, You can eat it.
Shawn Berman 28:29
I feel you're ready to vanilla pudding. It's got to be vanilla pudding. Something like
Michael Wheaton 28:33
Can't remember what it was, but they were like, If this isn't edible, it's a liability.
Michael Wheaton 28:39
It's probably just like super concentrated high-fructose corn syrup. And then I know you were really into pro wrestling, too. One of the things that when I saw you on Twitter I was like, Alright, I'm gonna be friends with this guy because you had a Stone Cold t-shirt on. I was like, Alright, me and this guy are gonna be friends. I can feel it. So I just talked to D.T. Robbins recently and we talked a bit about pro wrestling and it's only right that we talk about it as well.
Shawn Berman 28:40
Tommy got very sick.
Shawn Berman 28:42
That's funny. I was just texting DT about wrestling.
Michael Wheaton 28:53
Oh, really?
Shawn Berman 29:15
Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 29:16
Nice. So were you always into wrestling or did you get into it in the Stone Cold era, or were like a classic classic guy?
Shawn Berman 29:24
I had an older brother growing up so he showed me the way, the right way. So like two, three years old, I'm tunning around in diapers, I'm watching pro wrestling. I remember staying up. There was like ECW, WWF.
Michael Wheaton 29:35
Who were your guys?
Shawn Berman 29:37
Oh, Stone Cold, man. The peak of the Attitude Era really cemented my following. But that whole era, I still go back and I'll watch. You definitely weren't allowed to say this at the time but I loved The Rock. I love going back and watching all of The Rock's stuff. Soft spot for Taker. Masked Kane.
Michael Wheaton 29:54
Yeah, I saw Undertaker retire at that WrestleMania before hr can retire like five times. But you know what I always thought was funny is like, it was amazing how there was a period of time, five, I don't know, five years, maybe ten, where people would just go up to other people and tell them to suck it. It was a completely normal. You'd have like 12 year old girls come up to you and just be like, Oh, yeah, suck it. And everyone did that.
Shawn Berman 30:19
Yeah, I used to do it in elementary school. I didn't know any better. My teacher would be like, Do you want to do this homework assignment, Shawn? And I'd go, No!, and I'd crossed my arms like X-Pac. Or, I remember the first day is second grade or some shit like that, the teacher was like, Settle down. And I went, Hell, no! I didn't know. I just saw Stone Cold do it. I thought it was fine.
Michael Wheaton 30:40
And then you shotgunned a beer, too.
Shawn Berman 30:43
Yeah, that's right. Smashed against my head. Mrs. Berman, there's something wrong with your kid. He's bringing Bud Lights to class.
Michael Wheaton 30:53
I have two older brothers, too, and some cousins their age and kind of my age and we had a much younger cousin. And we used to show him wrestling and just get him to imitate them. His parents luckily thought it was funny but we'd have him do, do you remember Val Venis, the fake pornstar guy, come up and put his hands behind his head and do the hip thing, and Hello, ladies! Well we taught my three year old cousin to do that when he was really little.
Shawn Berman 31:22
We used to break out the stinkface. That's not an appropriate move anywhere, by the way. I don't understand why the neighbors didn't want to play with me.
Michael Wheaton 31:32
Cuz you stunk faced 'em. So, I was one of those kids who my brothers would do moves on me. Were you that way, too?
Shawn Berman 31:40
Oh yeah. Me and my brother would beat the crap out of each other. We'd have like the ketchup bottle, too. We didn't know that they were faking it. So we'd hit each other over the head with like random crap in the house. Here's a bowling trophy. Bam! And then we start pouring ketchup over each other's face. Our parents would get so pissed. Off the top rope, we'd jump off the couch, give the People's Elbow, it's a lot of fun. I still remember all that though.
Michael Wheaton 32:02
I know. There's definitely been moments I look back on where I'm like, I'm lucky I'm still here. My brother would.. after school there'd be an hour and a half or so until my mom got home. And we shared a room and he'd just be like, Get on the floor, I'm gonna put you in a sharpshooter.
Shawn Berman 32:17
Let's see if this hurts.
Michael Wheaton 32:19
And it did. Now see if you can break out of the Walls of Jericho. Nope, still can't do it.
Shawn Berman 32:26
I'm gonna try this Crippler Crossface on ya.
Michael Wheaton 32:28
Yeah, one time we broke my mom's bed. He gave me a bunch of German Suplexes on it. Another time he picked me up for a powerbomb in the living room and accidentally just dropped me onto the floor.
Shawn Berman 32:44
And you're still here, though.
Michael Wheaton 32:46
I know. And then in high school, we'd have friends and we'd get together on weekends and bring the camcorder. Did you ever do that kind of stuff, like trampoline wrestling?
Shawn Berman 32:55
Oh, for sure. We used to have those really stupid fake toy belts that you walk around in. And we'd just pound each other over the head with them and, New Champion of the World! We'd stand on the couch and show it to everybody. Oh, my God. I don't know how we're still here.
Michael Wheaton 33:13
I know. I'm like worried about my kids watching it or something.
Shawn Berman 33:16
It's toned down now.
Michael Wheaton 33:17
It is but I'm still terrified of it. One time their aunt got them a trampoline for their birthday, which is in March. And I thought that I had kept it away from them for the most part. I knew they'd seen me watching it with my brother. And they were outside and they were jumping on the trampoline. I gave the classic dad yell, Boys, no rough-housing on the trampoline! That kind of thing. And my four year old son stops, and goes, Dad, we're having a cage match!
Shawn Berman 33:48
It's a Hell in a Cell. This happens so quickly. Do you watch it with your boys now?
Michael Wheaton 33:57
No, I'm still just like scared to show them because they're just, I know what it's like. They're two years apart. And they're really little. I was just like, I know they're gonna kick the shit out of each other.
Shawn Berman 34:08
Oh, absolutely.
Michael Wheaton 34:09
But you know, at the same time, they're gonna kick the shit out of each other anyway. Do you let your cats watch it?
Shawn Berman 34:14
Oh, absolutely. We bring them out, put on their little Stone Cold t-shirts. Here we go.
Michael Wheaton 34:20
Did you ever want to write for wrestling?
Shawn Berman 34:22
Oh, that would be awesome to do right now.
Michael Wheaton 34:26
Wouldn't that be the greatest job?
Shawn Berman 34:27
That'd be great to write, like, the greatest heel turn ever.
Michael Wheaton 34:31
So, we talked about a lot of your writing influences being movies and TV and stuff like that. I was wondering, because when I was reading your essays and some of your poems, you don't really read like a pure humorist anymore. And it kind of made me think to... this was before my time, but back when they had a very prominent humor section and they had their humor writers. Were you into those guys? I'm thinking James Thurber. Do you remember him at all? And there's this other guy, I didn't really read him, he was S. J. Perelman, or something like that. But when I was reading your stuff I almost felt a hint of that New Yorker humor vibe in there, but like very deeply updated to the cultural moment. But I definitely had that feeling of New Yorker humor writers. Does that ring true for you at all?
Shawn Berman 35:24
I mean, I'm gonna take that with me to the grave now. That's a blurb for sure. I won't ever let that down, yeah. That's funny, when I started getting into writing seriously, one of the first guys I read was Simon Rich. And he was one of those wonder kids. You know, he was 20 years old writing for SNL had a New Yorker article running weekly. I always thought he was really funny and talented the way he would take a random object, like a condom, to life and tell the whole story of a condom. I was like, You can do that? I always thought that was really great. And I've wanted to do that for a long time. Ever since reading his stuff.
Michael Wheaton 36:02
I can't remember which poem it is, but you talk about something you were watching a ton during lockdown.
Shawn Berman 36:12
Oh, 90 Day Fiancé.
Michael Wheaton 36:14
Yeah, it was a reality TV show. So, I hadn't heard of this and I was like, What is 90 Day Fiancé? I mean, I guess I kind of got the general idea, but why was it that show in particular?
Shawn Berman 36:27
I don't really know. I think it's great to watch other people struggling more than you are. These people just don't get it. They don't understand how relationships work. And neither do I. But it's refreshing to watch people who who suck at it more than you for two hours every night. You just turn your brain off.
Michael Wheaton 36:47
Yeah, it is kind of nice, especially in the pandemic where it feels like everything's kind of an onslaught, you know, like all your thoughts and then all the things you're reading, and then all of a sudden it's like, Okay, time to watch 90 Day Fiancé.
Shawn Berman 37:01
I got so invested in the 90 Day Fiancé. There's not only 90 Day Fiancé, there's 90 Day Fiancé: The Other Way, where they go meet them in a different country. And then there's 90 Day Fiancé the post-game show or 90 Day Fiancé: Before the 90 Days. So even before they get to the 90 days, they're having the pre-game 90 days.
Michael Wheaton 37:23
180 Day Fiancé.
Shawn Berman 37:24
Yeah, I even joined the subreddit. I'm like, Where are these... I'm neck deep into conspiracy theories for this reality TV show? It was great.
Michael Wheaton 37:35
What else did you you watch? Did you watch an insane amount of TV in the pandemic? I mean, it seems like you did a lot of writing. You did a lot of publishing. But was there a lot of TV in there?
Shawn Berman 37:43
It was a lot. See, I watched more movies than TV. Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 37:47
You're one of the few remaining. Everyone seems to watch a lot of series now. And it's hard to find people who just like to watch movies. I find that especially with my students. I'm like, Oh, what are your favorite movies? They're like, I like The Office. It' like, I really love how liberally you're using the term movie. I agree with you. But, that's not what I meant.
Shawn Berman 38:08
It's a great movie. Yeah.
Michael Wheaton 38:11
It's a very long movie.
Shawn Berman 38:12
Yeah, of course, I've rewatched The Office a bunch, but I've always been a movie person. I can't get away from movies.
Michael Wheaton 38:19
One of my favorite essays in your book was the one about Jaws. Like, you can't be a cinephile until you watch Jaws. Which, in a way is kind of true.
Shawn Berman 38:29
It's kind of true, yeah. It's in the canon.
Michael Wheaton 38:33
I really liked Jaws. I disagree with you giving it a C. What'd you give it like a 7. I was like, Aw, come on, man. It's better than a 7.
Shawn Berman 38:41
Let's go Jurassic Park, come on.
Michael Wheaton 38:43
Well, I don't know. It's tough. Maybe we should debate that. My wife's favorite movie is Jurassic Park, and then her second favorite movie is Twister. We just we just watched that somewhat recently. And I was like, the plot or the plot structure of this movie is amazing. You open the movie, and there's a tornado. And then they start chasing it. And they chased tornadoes the entire time. And then there's one scene or so where they're chillin at Aunt May's house, eating the steaks or whatever. And then you're like, Alright, cool, there's like a down moment here in this movie. And then it's like, Boom, another one, the biggest one. And I was like, every piece of fiction should be structured like,
Shawn Berman 39:30
Just non stop. I think that's where Fast and Furious draws its inspiration. It's gotta be.
Michael Wheaton 39:35
But, yeah, it's tough. I think maybe the pretentious side of me is gonna be like, Jaws is a better movie than Jurassic Park. But like, really? If I had to watch one right now, I'd probably watch Jurassic Park.
Shawn Berman 39:49
RIght now. You wanna watch dinosaurs on the big screen.
Michael Wheaton 39:52
I teach intro to film at my college every once in a while, and I definitely use Jaws all the time.
Shawn Berman 39:58
It's a great film. It's not Jurassic Park though.
Michael Wheaton 40:02
It's kind of true. But you know what I always tell my students when I find out that they want to go into film or something? So, I get students who are either in one or two camps. They're obsessed with Steven Spielberg movies. Or they're like, too cool for 'em. So I always want to go, I just want to remind you that Steven Spielberg directed Jurassic Park and Schindler's List in the same year. Was that like 1993?
Shawn Berman 40:30
Insane, right? Was he sleeping?
Michael Wheaton 40:33
Well, maybe he didn't direct him in the same year but he released them in the same year, but he did one and then the other I guess, and are there two more completely different movies in the world? And I kind of need both of them.
Shawn Berman 40:42
I always loved the Film Bro on Twitter who doesn't like Tarantino. You're lying. You love Kill Bill. Kill Bill is fucking awesome. Stop it.
Michael Wheaton 40:52
It's funny, a lot of this stuff we're getting into it came up with other people. I wonder if there's just gonna be themes on this show. We just started talking about that kind of stuff. But yeah, he was talking about how it's not cool to like Tarantino anymore for a variety of different reasons or whatever. But we were also talking about how people now are like, Oh, The Beatles, whatever. What? You can't "whatever" The Beatles. You can't "whatever" Spielberg. You can't "whatever" The Beatles. You can't "whatever" Tarantino. You don't like them. That's one thing, or it's not your thing. Maybe you don't like something Tarantino said that was probably offensive. I forget,. I know he got into something, I don't even remember what it was and I'm sure he was wrong. But you still can't be like, man.
Shawn Berman 41:44
Yeah, he has his faults. He likes his feet. But everyone has their faults.
Michael Wheaton 41:50
But I mean like, the guy made movies in the 90s that changed the course of mainstream cinema. It's just a fact. Like, after Pulp Fiction, how many movies after that were crime movies where there's a ton of dialogue? It happened all the time after that. It was like Tarantino ripoffs kind of became a genre. You know, for like, late 90s, early 2000s and stuff like that.
Shawn Berman 42:14
I'm holding out hope for Kill Bill, Volume 3. I sure hope so.
Michael Wheaton 42:18
I definitely watched Kill Bill, I think in the theaters and I don't think I've seen it since. The two of them were very different, right? One was like was super action and the other one was like super slow. I'll have to rewatch those.
Shawn Berman 42:30
Yeah, the other one was more like slower.
Shawn Berman 42:30
Oh, that's so good. That one's great.
Michael Wheaton 42:33
I like his revenge stuff. I like the Inglourious Basterds movie. That was a good one.
Michael Wheaton 42:40
So, what are you working on now? I mean, it's kind of a bad question. You just released two books. But do you have another one you're working on that you feel like talking about at all?
Shawn Berman 42:51
I'm kind of tossing around more poetry. I guess I'm up to 15ish poems,so I'm almost got another collection. A little slower with writing right now. I've been working on longer projects. I've been dipping my toe a bit into the YA market.
Michael Wheaton 43:07
Like YA fiction?
Shawn Berman 43:09
Yeah. So I'm on a second rewrite of my YA novel. So that's kind of, that's a slow process. And I have no idea where that's going.
Michael Wheaton 43:18
Do you want to give the set up for it? Or you don't want to jinx it?
Shawn Berman 43:21
Oh, man. Let's see. I always say it's like High School Musical meets You've Got Mail. And we'll see where it goes. If any agents are listening, I promise it's not bad. It's okay.
Michael Wheaton 43:40
Well, here's my recommendation for the book. Start it as a tornado's coming through.
Shawn Berman 43:47
I think so. I think we need more tornadoes.
Michael Wheaton 43:49
And then just have them follow that. So draft three is going to just introduce the tornado, really to whatever's happening.
Shawn Berman 43:57
We're lacking a tornado villain. I think that's the problem.
Michael Wheaton 44:00
Yeah, you got to go full on, you got to go like disaster cinema. You gotta have the giant dinosaurs or the giant shark.
Shawn Berman 44:08
I think I know where I went wrong in the first draft.
Michael Wheaton 44:10
And then the tsunami. So you just got to go back and rewrite it as a natural disaster.
Shawn Berman 44:16
I think so. This is good advice.
Michael Wheaton 44:19
Well, good luck with that. I don't know anything about trying to sell a YA book, but it sounds like fun. I always thought about it. Especially now that I have kids. I'm like, Dude, I think I would rock some novels for 8 to 12 year olds. I bet I could nail a sports book for an 8 year old right?
Shawn Berman 44:37
Yeah, I'm always like, people 30 to 40 year don't find me funny, but I bet kids do.
Michael Wheaton 44:46
There ya go. If you ever want to try your stuff on a 4 year old, just let me know and Ill put you on a zoom with my kid. Do your five to him. He's really into jokes now. He'll come up to me now and be like, Dad, I gotta tell you a joke. And I'll go, What? And he'll go, Poop on your head. Andhe'll start cracking up.
Shawn Berman 45:07
That's cold, man.
Michael Wheaton 45:07
I'm like, Dude, you got this down. It's like, Knock knock. And I go, Who's there? And he's like, Poopy.
Shawn Berman 45:19
Class clown already.
Michael Wheaton 45:20
I know, nailed it. I have him writting humor poems in no time.
Shawn Berman 45:26
He's gonna be our youngest Daily Drunk contributor.
Michael Wheaton 45:28
Yeah. Actually, it's funny, I had your book out earlier, I was reading through the poems again to prep and kind of remind myself because I read it a few weeks ago, or whenever you sent it, it was a couple weeks, I don't remember. And he was looking at the cover and he was looking at the little pictures on it. And he was like whispering to himself. He was like, This one looks like a unicorn. This one looks like a ghost. This one is a monster. He was like mumbling to himself. And then he showed it to me and goes, Daddy, what are these? And I was like, They're cartoon creatures. And he's like, They're scary. So, to a 4 year old, your book is a horror book.
Shawn Berman 46:11
Man, I got two blurbs from this family.
Michael Wheaton 46:16
We're gold, dude. We gotchu.
Michael Wheaton 46:21
Alright, that's my conversation with Shawn Berman. Go check out his books, Mr. Funny Man and At The Movies. If you haven't yet, check out the Daily Drunk at dailydrunkmag.com. Okay, that's it. Thanks for listening. Till next time.